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Post by nyujeelandsaram on Oct 1, 2004 22:37:02 GMT -5
There are definitely more foreigners who speak Japanese than Korean but that doesn't make it easier just more studied. eckzackery. English would be the most common second language on the planet I would assume, despite the fact that it is supposedly the 2nd hardest language in the world to learn. Reason being that more people study it.
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Post by SteveW on Oct 2, 2004 8:33:38 GMT -5
Well some progress was made on the Japanese front today due to boredom after the footy finished.
Reckon it took me an hour to get down 12 Katakana out of 46 and I can now tell you that the Japanese for ear is 'mimi' or ÐÐ in katakana.
ONly another 34 katakana, 46 hirigana and about 70000 Kanji to go.
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Post by ironops on Oct 2, 2004 10:22:47 GMT -5
There are definitely more foreigners who speak Japanese than Korean but that doesn't make it easier just more studied. I didn't phrase that very well - well, I did say my English was going to pot I never meant that it did mean that, just that it was one of several factors, which taken all together, could suggest that for a large number of people trying to master both, Korean might be the one they find more difficult. And remember I did also say 'proportionally', and 'to a good standard' not just speak a little. I probably felt the same after 2 weeks but not sure that is time enough to make much of a judgment. I know I found getting to a useful level much easier in Japanese than I had done in Korean. Granted, one of the reasons for that is clearly because I'd learnt Korean before starting on Japanese and already understanding the structure and other similar bits gave me a head start that I hadn't had when beginning Korean. But, even taking that into account, I still think everyday conversational Japanese (but NOT, as I've said already, the writing system) was easier than equivalent Korean to pick up. I believe some of the main reasons for this are social factors, especially the Japanese concept of tatemae (the outside face you show to the world but NOT what you really feel). Steve, I reckon you'll find as you pick up more and more Japanese and start to understand more that you'll be surprised how often you can predict almost exactly how the conversation will go. So many conversations with people you're not that close to tend to not rock the boat much. I once had a moan about my first Japanese teacher making me learn set conversations and not letting me adapt them as much as I wanted. It took a while for it to dawn on me, but she was right as the situations being covered were ones where in Japan, you really are supposed to answer in a certain way. That's not a criticism at all of Japanese society, it's just the way it is. And when it helps you fool the locals into thinking you're better at the lingo than you really are, then it's not something to moan about. BTW, English "supposedly the 2nd hardest language in the world" Where did you hear that, mate? And which was the language "supposedly" harder than English? Not having a go at you, nyujeelandsaram, as I understood that as just something you'd heard from elsewhere, but in my opinion anyone claiming a language is the hardest in the world or 2nd hardest is talking garbage. (Both some Koreans & some Japanese are guilty of such nonsense from time to time, I've found) A language being hard or easy is totally subjective, totally dependent on the learners individual background. What's hard for one, is very likely not so for others. I think every language has hard bits and relatively easy bits for everyone, but what one finds easy/hard isn't necessarily what someone else does.
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Post by ironops on Oct 2, 2004 10:30:19 GMT -5
Well some progress was made on the Japanese front today due to boredom after the footy finished. Reckon it took me an hour to get down 12 Katakana out of 46 and I can now tell you that the Japanese for ear is 'mimi' or ÐÐ in katakana. ONly another 34 katakana, 46 hirigana and about 70000 Kanji to go. Steve, have you seen a book called "Kana can be easy"? It uses a series of pictures to depict each hiragana and katakana and the pics are so ridiculous that you remember very easily. I didn't actually use the book myself to learn them, but I wish I had as absolutely everyone of many people I've met who did use it totally swore by its effectiveness at getting them to remember the lot in a very short time.
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Post by nyujeelandsaram on Oct 2, 2004 11:30:25 GMT -5
BTW, English "supposedly the 2nd hardest language in the world" Where did you hear that, mate? And which was the language "supposedly" harder than English? Not having a go at you, nyujeelandsaram, as I understood that as just something you'd heard from elsewhere, but in my opinion anyone claiming a language is the hardest in the world or 2nd hardest is talking garbage. (Both some Koreans & some Japanese are guilty of such nonsense from time to time, I've found) A language being hard or easy is totally subjective, totally dependent on the learners individual background. What's hard for one, is very likely not so for others. I think every language has hard bits and relatively easy bits for everyone, but what one finds easy/hard isn't necessarily what someone else does. It's just something I've been hearing for years from multiple sources, people, internet etc. It's apparently sitting behind Chinese. To be honest I couldn't possibly know as I may find some languages easier to learn than others find. I think the claim is based on the grammar being different from other languages, the size of the vocabulary, the amount of slang and regional vocab and pronunciation differences and words that aren't probounced as they are spelt yadayada. Don't know if it's possible to measure or not. I suppose it might be.
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Post by nyujeelandsaram on Oct 2, 2004 11:33:53 GMT -5
Steve, have you seen a book called "Kana can be easy"? It uses a series of pictures to depict each hiragana and katakana and the pics are so ridiculous that you remember very easily. I didn't actually use the book myself to learn them, but I wish I had as absolutely everyone of many people I've met who did use it totally swore by its effectiveness at getting them to remember the lot in a very short time. How many words can you learn and retain doing it that way? I take it they are all manner of common daily words? It helps learning Korean when you know x number of words and then pick up related words as you go along. But the only way I remember words is if I use them all the time or am drunk. For some reason that triggers some 2nd language part of my brain and I'm able to rabbit on like a mad man to any Korean. No doubt they still have no idea what I am saying.
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Post by ironops on Oct 2, 2004 18:20:02 GMT -5
How many words can you learn and retain doing it that way? I take it they are all manner of common daily words? They're not words, they're the symbols that make up the Japanese syllabary. Hiragana are the ones that learners, be they native speakers or not, usually pick up first. Katakana represent the same 40 odd sounds but are used for words of foreign origin (and people who think it's trendy to use them instead of kanji). Many katakana look very similar to their equivalent hiragana, so learning both is very similar to learning both upper and lower cases of our alphabet, with a few more added on. You see them everywhere; all train station names are written in hiragana as well as kanji. The ever increasing number of foreign words in Japanese are all shown in katakana, so you're not likely to forget them. (Come to think of it, that's probably one aspect of reading Japanese that IS easier than the equivalent task in Korean - at least you know instantly that it's a foreign, and very likely English, word; whereas I'm sure everyone on here who's learned Korean has been through that experience of spending ages puzzling over a new word only to eventually find it's an English one bastardised beyond belief by hangeul.) I'm sure there is a limit to the number of symbols you can pick up by this silly pics method, but I'd say the number of Japanese kana is well within that limit for most people. I absolutely totally definitely agree that excessive alcohol is a much underrated tool in foreign language acquisition and retention. Believe me, I've tried it many times and it works, better than I can sometimes remember, in fact.
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